Windsurf Foiling Discussion

[grantmac]

Ohhh WindDoc "flog hopping" i presume this is in reference to being a weeee bit underpowered and pumping to a foil only to sink back once you stop?

I hope that this minimizing of board volume and length doesnt end the glimmer of hope for a rebirth of the sport at light wind locations, the way shortboards killed it almost everywhere back in the 90s.

Unless you sail into a very deep lull once you are up and going you stay that way.

Given that NP is trying for an Olympic class that foils in 6-7kts and this year's foils all seem to have bigger wings than last, I personally think that light wind performance will stay in focus.

[Keen]

As Winddoc mentioned I might chime in and I suppose since I'm reading this (and perhaps learning something ) I should -- though I have little to offer at this point.

I bought a slingshot hoverglide (I think it is the h2 wing on it) foil with power plate etc..
I wanted to try to use it on my 104L freestyle wave board. For my weight (about 86kg) I found it very tough to uphaul. The wind was too light to get going. The shape is probably less than ideal for foiling in lighter wind (getting up on the foil) as it is fairly narrow and tappered at the tail.
So I started looking for cheap higher volume board. Not seeing anything out there that I wanted I decided to just spend the cash on a foil board. After a lot of deliberation I bought the Slingshot Wizard 125 which measures 6'6". I'm a bit over 6 so it is short!

So far I'm at ground zero on actual foiling as I'm waiting for some good wind locally. I tried yesterday at Gordon's but the shore bubble pretty much burst my bubble. Lots of wind off shore but almost zero to get out there. Anyhow, the experience was worthwhile as I got the feel of the board for uphaul and balance. It is fairly stable and not hard to uphaul for my weight. The mast track is almost right at the front of the board and balance is interesting because I am used to having my front foot in front of the mast in those situations. You can't do this as the front of the board submarines. Once I get some wind in my sail I think this will be much easier to deal with and obviously it will be easier to get my weight back as the board gets forward motion. I do wonder how bad my crashes might be as I start out though...

I'll add more once I've actually had a real go at it.
Tempy mentioned he tried a slingshot setup. Was that the Dialer or the Wizard or both?

Edit: I looked at the stock pic of the Wizard 125 and thought the mast track does not look that far forward. Then I looked at my board and it is way different. Probably 6 inches further forward on mine. The centre of the track basically bisects the ring of the logo on the board. They must have changed the design or something...

[winddude]

I wanted to try to use it on my 104L freestyle wave board. For my weight (about 86kg) I found it very tough to uphaul. The wind was too light to get going. The shape is probably less than ideal for foiling in lighter wind (getting up on the foil) as it is fairly narrow and tappered at the tail.

Good call. Looking at the foil boards they are much wider and shorter. The width in front of the mast track combined with a lightwind slalom tail, will break the surface tension and get you on the foil sooner. Plus you don't need the length of a standard because you're not using the rail to stay up wind, it's all on the foil, plus a shorter length eliminates a lot of drag before you're on the foil.

[tempy]

"Tempy mentioned he tried a slingshot setup. Was that the Dialer or the Wizard or both?"

I believe down in Baja it was both, but cannot be sure.

I would be "keen" to try the 125 if you are up at the lake.

The "regular" boards certainly don't have the stability / shape to uphaul (although Robby Naish just sinks down to his knees on his waveboard when uphauling). I think Tweezer has done the same, come to think of it.

While my low wind waterstarts aren't graceful, I am sticking to them for now.

[juandesooka]

hey Nanmoo. I am on my second (kite) foil board and I'm still back foot or equal weight distribution. What are you riding?

Everything is relative and you have so much experience now your feet are probably much closer together and near the center of balance. Either way, I think if you hopped on a windsurf foil board your definition of equal weight or back foot heavy would change. It's waaaayyyy further back there. Just like when you learnt to windsurf and you couldn't wrap your head around how you'd ever get your foot way back there. I've ridden the village liquid force kite foil at Nitinat and the communal LP Foil at Strong and MF4's Naish Windsurf foil.

If you want feel the difference between front and back foot pressure, try a canard (zeeko spitfire) set up ... straining back quad so hard just to stay on foil, could barely walk after. This could also be from poorly tuned DIY wings.

A benefit of the rear foot bias with a canard, with the large wing at the back, is that the foil turns by rotating on a point, rather than through an arc. So it feels like stomping a turn on a surf shortboard, noticably more reactive.

Back to the thread: I wonder if any manufacturers are experimenting with canard set up in the windsurf foil world? Seems like a great idea, just never really caught on in kiting, except for a small pocket of obsessives. I intend/hope to experiment with it DIY style on sup foil in the Fall.

[tempy]

That Canard design looks really cool and I can see what you mean by the "pivot" nature of the turns:

https://www.seabreeze.com.au/News/Kites ... 45328.aspx

[juandesooka]

That Canard design looks really cool and I can see what you mean by the "pivot" nature of the turns:

https://www.seabreeze.com.au/News/Kites ... 45328.aspx

It makes sense on paper and it definitely works in practice. The benefits are smaller wings for a desired amount of lift, rear foot bias faster turning, and (supposedly) less crashes from front wing breaches as the foil should simply lose lift and drop down off step. The question, though, is why hasn't the concept taken off? It could be that the advertised benefits are not actually there or that the benefit is so minimal that it isn't worth the bother. It seems to make most sense to sup/surf foil, but there appears to be zero interest there.

I think Zeeko misplayed it in initially pushing the tiny wings: meant that they needed a lot of speed to stay on foil and were twitchy, more for advanced riders. Zeeko has since come out with a "light wind" version XLW and an "extra light wind" version XXLW, aimed at sup/surf/windsurf foils. But they may have lost their initial push, the foil community moved on.

[Keen]

If you have lots of $ to blow I just saw this
https://www.ezzy.com/sails/2018-sails/ezzy-hydra/
For me, I could not justify the $750 USD to try a new concept like this.

[juandesooka]

If you have lots of $ to blow I just saw this
https://www.ezzy.com/sails/2018-sails/ezzy-hydra/
For me, I could not justify the $750 USD to try a new concept like this.

Unsure if the kiting experience translates directly or not, but I'd suggest most of the "foil specific kite" marketing is BS ... just trying to hype up a new market to sell more gear you don't really need.

There are definitely advantages to styles of kites that translate to styles of foiling ... e.g., the racers use very high aspect kites, the people into slower carving want a high drift wave oriented kite. But for the most part these are kites designed for a specific purpose that also happen to work well for foiling too. Other than extreme specialists, most foilers don't need foil specific gear.

[grantmac]

If you have lots of $ to blow I just saw this
https://www.ezzy.com/sails/2018-sails/ezzy-hydra/
For me, I could not justify the $750 USD to try a new concept like this.

Unsure if the kiting experience translates directly or not, but I'd suggest most of the "foil specific kite" marketing is BS ... just trying to hype up a new market to sell more gear you don't really need.

There are definitely advantages to styles of kites that translate to styles of foiling ... e.g., the racers use very high aspect kites, the people into slower carving want a high drift wave oriented kite. But for the most part these are kites designed for a specific purpose that also happen to work well for foiling too. Other than extreme specialists, most foilers don't need foil specific gear.

There are some sails that don't work terribly well. Anything that still has a very loose leach at minimum DH like my Northwave ZXs, or has an unstable center of effort like a Superfreak isn't going to make for a good foil sail.
Sails with a stable draft (cams help a lot) and tight leech work really well. I use an older (2007?) Sailworks 7.2NX for light wind and an even older Naish Koa 5.5 that I added a single cam to for +15. Generally I quit foiling much above 20kts but I think at that point sail design starts to matter very little.

[more force 4]

Unsure if the kiting experience translates directly or not, but I'd suggest most of the "foil specific kite" marketing is BS ... just trying to hype up a new market to sell more gear you don't really need. ... . But for the most part these are kites designed for a specific purpose that also happen to work well for foiling too. Other than extreme specialists, most foilers don't need foil specific gear.

FWIW I talked to several WS foilers at Hood River who werent selling anything that said the foil sails made a huge difference for low end power, stability and low centre of effort. Kites are generally way more rangey than ws sails and probably cross over better.

[KC7777]

Time to chime in.

Caveat….I haven’t foiled much and as a prof not knowing a subject has never ever stopped me talking about it. Haha.

I was down in the Gorge recently, with lots of cash in hand from selling the Slingshot foil and a couple of SUPS… I didn’t buy anything….shocker for me….but too many conflicting designs/ideas/recommendations about foiling.

I was seriously considering the following foils:

- Fanatic Gecko 133L Foil (246cm x 78cm),
- Fanatic Blast 145L Foil (235cm x 77cm),
- JP Hydrofoil 135L (215cm x 86cm),
- Starboard Foil 122L (231cm x 76cm),
- Naish Hoverfoil 122L (229cm x 76cm).

I spent a fair bit of time talking to Bruce Peterson at Sailworks and Eddy Patricelli at Big Winds and the guys at Gorge Surf Shop. For what it’s worth here’s a bit of what I’ve learned/heard/thought.

I’ve sailed Tempy’s Slingshot foil on the old Roberts board and it always felt as if the board was “not right” when flying. Bruce Peterson says the sweet spot for mast base position for foiling is 43-44" ahead of the front tuttle fin bolt. I never did check that dimension on the Roberts board (275cm x 70cm?) but maybe that is why the board felt wrong…..likely because it was a really long board, with the tuttle fin box really far back (it is a Roberts “ flapper”which has the tuttle box right at the rear of the board). I’ve heard of people are cutting the nose off these old, long boards. But if you have a board and the front screw of the tuttle box is not approx.. 43-44” from the mast base then you are f’ed?

Re foil board size/dimensions…Bruce feels that the JP 135L Hoverfoil style boards (at 86cm wide) is freaking huge. He figures at my size (165-170 lbs) I do not need a board that big for foiling, especially if my biggest sail is a 6.2M Revo. His custom foil board is approx. 235cm x 76cm….very similar to the Fanatic Blast (235cm x 77cm).

Bruce says the key thing they have found for a good foil board is that it’s all about having the front wing of the foil (of whatever foil and board you’re using) approximately centred between your feet (ie when you look down through the board the front wing of the foil is as close to equal distance between the front and back footstraps as possible)?

Interestingly, I measured the foil that Bruce had (AFS Carbon free-ride foil). We measured the distance from the front tuttle bolt to the middle of the foil wing. I then took that distance and determined where the foil wing would be on the Fanatic Blast. It appeared that the front foil wing would be approx.. 10” in front of the centre of the back footstrap, and approx.. 12” back from the centre of the front footstraps….so not quite centered…a bit rearward. Then I measured Bruce’s custom foil board and it was pretty much the same? (Bruce’s foil wing was also approx. 12” back from front strap and 10” in front of back strap? So not quite centred but just back of centre?) So I think the Fanatic Blast could be a good board for foiling.

Bruce P is a big proponent of full carbon foils. The reason for carbon he says that if you have an aluminium foil and are foiling in salt water you need to know that carbon wings on aluminum fuselages with stainless fasteners is an electrolysis wet dream -- you basically have a battery under your board. Make sure to coat everything in marine grease.

I almost bought a slightly used, full carbon, AF4 foil for $1,299US from him…..but it had a pretty small front wing and looked pretty advanced to learn on?

Speaking of foil wings to learn on….by far the easiest foil to learn on seems to be the Naish Thrust WS1 foil that goes with the Hover 122. It is very low aspect, thick front wing that rises at exceptionally slow speeds, with minimal pumping. This foil prioritizes early rising and stability first and foremost. Speed is a lesser concern. I think people have found the Naish Hover 122 pretty easy to use right and gives you immediate confidence for learning foiling with its slightly shorter mast (75cm vs 85-90cm).

Bruce said it would be deadly slow, too slow and very boring after you got it dialed. I’ve been learning waterskiing. I bought a fat freeride ski and it was great for learning one-ski starts. It planes at 24mph, easy to turn. After 30x waterskiing, I now use a full-on, narrow slalom ski at 32 mph in glass water. The fat ski now it sits on the beach. It’s too boring.

One thing that really bugs me about the Naish is most (or all) of the vids or pics I see of the Hover 122 show Robby Naish not hooked in? He’s actually harness-less in most pics. WTF?

Eddy Patricelli at Big Winds said the Naish Hover 122 would be playful cause its foot straps (especially those in the rear) are inboard. In fact, when riding, your rear foot is positioned directly over the foil, like a wave board. This is ideal for easy entry, swell riding and carving maneuvers.

Whereas, foil boards like the JP and Starboard are more free-ride foiling boards cause the JP and Starboard foot straps are more outboard. He said if your standard windsurfing leans toward free-riding, blasting up and downwind and exploring your local waterway, the JP 135 or Starboard 122 are great calls. These foils will still rise at slow speeds, though often require more of your energy to do so (= pumping).

Another reason against the Naish is I don’t’ want to spend big bucks on a board that is foil only….like the Naish. Which is why the Fanatic Blast (which comes with a tuttle box that is foil approved and mast base is 43.5" inf front of front tuttle screw) makes some sense….it approximates Bruce’s custom foil board and it would also be good for freeride windsurfing at Kootenay Lake/Hornby Island.

Or just be like Tempy…buy a decent foil and a powerplate and who cares about the board!

Keith

[tempy]

“I’ve sailed Tempy’s Slingshot foil on the old Roberts board and it always felt as if the board was “not right” when flying.”

Keith, it turns out you had the switch fuselage the wrong way around ( Wyatt told me to check it) and that definitely made the foil temperamental - the wing was too far in front of the mast.

I switched it and it rode better this past weekend - even with a 3.7 sail in some windy conditions!

And lathered everything in marine grease!

The Roberts was also definitely too much board .

Especially as it gets windier and you need to sheet out more, I found myself riding without a harness 95 % of the time.

I think the setup I have on the Fanatic Skate has the wing just behind centre ( between the straps.

Tons of fun despite the foil gibe crashes!

[grantmac]

Do you want to ride like this:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 6405612139

Or like this:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... p_activity

gear choices will reflect intent.

FYI after a year foiling I'm going much larger on wing size. I want ease of use and low speed playful.

[more force 4]

Or like this:
... gear choices will reflect intent.

FYI after a year foiling I'm going much larger on wing size. I want ease of use and low speed playful.

For me, the second one just looks way way more fun and playful. That little couple-of-finger push on the foot to make the thrown sail fly back upright looks so cool - to be able to do that while foiling?! I saw a foiling 360 at Hood River - at high speed - that looked like magic.