As I was sailing at Kook yesterday, I couldn't figure out if it was me, my gear, or the conditions that were giving me problems. After reading all the Cook St reports in the sailing log, it would seem as though it was me and/or my gear as most people had a good sesssion.

I was on a 5.4 Sailworks Revo. I was constantly adjusting the downhaul and outhaul - something I hardly ever have to do. I'm wondering now if I was flattening the sail so much at times that it was powerless. There would be lots of wind in the sail but it felt heavy and twitchy and I'd be totally slogging. Because of this, I would go in and loosen everything off and then I'd be way overpowered. I always thought that my flattened out 5.4 would be equivalent to my 4.8 so now I'm confused

At what point does a sail become overpowered?? How much outhaul is too much? I think I'm answering my own questions as I'm writing this but I'd like some input from others. Was it really THAT gusty yesterday or did my sail just feel really twitchy because of how it was rigged?

I'm anxious to get back down there and redeem myself. I was pretty disappointed when I left yesterday

Thanks!

yup, interestingly enough had the same thing w/ my gaastra 5.4 after a fabulous first 2 hrs and usually I don't have to do anything there either except outhaul a bit. I figured I needed the volume but overfinned and it really was kinda 5-5.2 ish with little room for error due to some large holes and the 4.5+ gusts. I checked and both Gonzales & Trial as well as Ogden logged close to 35 knots at times, so 5.4 was a bit much but the lardass guys like me need it in the holes. Tough sailing near the end but I was also too tired/cold to overcome it. not to mention that I owe Dave $50

Hey W247/523 and Kus'ing, I had similar problems yesterday sailing out of Ross Bay on my Hyper and 8.0m. I was quite overpowered at times but had lots and lots of downhaul...maybe too much as I was getting pulled forward alot of the time. I put on some more outhaul and it seemed better but sail felt like it had no power on the inside where it was just gusty. I'm going to try and take some time next time out to play with the out/up haul and feel the differences....I think when you sail with the same gear for awhile you get to know it if you take time to listen to what it's telling you. I know that I am too quick to get out and sail instead of tweaking for proper feel. Just my 2cents worth.

My 2 cents:

Rob, my guess is that you had too much outhaul on yesterday. I didn't look closely at your sail, but it did seem fairly "board flat". When you downhaul a sail for highwind, as you know, you want the head to twist off enough so that it breathes in the puffs and realigns in the lighter average wind. If you downnhaul too much, you lose too much leech tension and the sail feels dead and gutless. If you then outhaul the sail too much in this scenario, the sail stalls easily and feels twitchy and jerky.

My old Sailworks responded well to highwind by downhauling enough so that the leech was loose to the 3rd batten from the top, and by outhauling just to the point of not having too much (or any, if you prefer) backhand pressure. One inch of extra downhaul or outhaul can settle the rig or kill its balance. Once the sail stops responding (ie feels horrible and twitchy) to these incremental increase in downhaul/outhaul, it's time to rig down to a "fun" size. Even Sailworks have a limit to the amout of tuning you can do to keep a given size at the upper end of its range! I assume that the mast is to Sailwork specs? I know this is all stuff that you already know, Rob, but other sailors struggling with rigging might find this discussion useful as well.

On a side note, there are still many sailors rigging their sails with tight leeches, as if they are afraid the mast will break under the tension. To these people, I suggest playing with more tension in the rig (more downhaul/moderate outhaul) and see how it feels. THe sails and masts are designed to be loaded heavily, so load'em up! From this higher downhaul setting, increase or decrease the outhaul until the sweetspot is felt on the water (balance, smoothness, ease).

Finally, it all comes down to personal preference within these rigging guidelines. For example, Kus and Bobson are big guys and need a rig to power them up early. They therefore need punchy,grunty, lower downhauled/outhauled sail than someone like BWD. So you also need to know how you need the sail to respond for the type sailing you do.

Sorry for the ramble, hoping to help out a bit.

Good advice Doc, I would agree! Rob, I would have thought you could have dropped your sailsize in the end cuz I was certainly on or over mostly and the Sailworks if outhauled too much turns to twitchy workyourassoff nolowend, but whatever. Your board should have been bang on tho. Bobson, I really can't comment on handling of an 8.0 in 5.0 conditions but I do know racesails are amazing and I have sailed a downhauledtoshit 6.0 well in 4.5 conditions....the question is, do you really need/want to? Also, it was a fair bit lighter/gustier in the a.m. I think.
Getting major use of my 5.4 and having sailed it in a huge range of conditions over the years I guess made me think something different was going near the end of the day yesterday...yes, I tend to keep the sail full and the leetch twisting but certainly not as floppy as some do. Once I have it there I only tug a bit on the outhaul but usually keep it to near 0, on bigger stuff I keep a -1 or even -2" sometimes.
I like to think that after years of struggling a lot with rules for midweight guys I found they don't apply to anyone 90+kg....the 65-80L volume of boards for one, the Evo provoking some thought tho as an exception (I have bought and sold more low volume boards than I care to admit, my smallest now is 87L). Rigging is similar for me, the Gaastra as opposed to the Sailworks likes sailing underpowered or on but doesn't handle well once over, Sailworks likes to be on or over and both get me through the lulls well, all my Ezzys always wanted to be sailed overpowered and died in the lulls (if this makes any sense in the simplest terms). As I usually strive to use the smallest sail possible, I prefer the former two brands, likely due to weight. Brands make less of a diff to me when it's wet smoke out there.
Yesterday I think I was just tired, the Gaastra was too big and when I finally got a smaller board (86L) I also dropped a sailsize (4.8m /fin which spelled BLAH. Given the holes I should have just gotten a smaller fin for the 94L and flattened the 5.4 a bit or rigged a fuller 4.8 Sorry, had some downtime to ramble...

I am almost ready to graduate from my 190L GO board with which I have learned how to plane, use the harness, get in the straps and waterstart. A few weeks ago at Nitnat with the wind blowing 30+ knots it became very apparent that the the board was just too big, bouncing wildly out the water on every piece of chop. Rob lent me his 115L mistral which stuck to the water much better although I had a hard time getting back up on it since it would barely float me at 102Kg. Yesterday at Ross bay I had a great time on the GO and 6.5 Retro until the wind picked up and the water got choppy. Ended up taking a big spill and pulling a muscle in my back. So the bottom line is I need a smaller board. Kus since you're a big guy too and have "bought and sold more low volume boards than I care to admit" what do you think would be a good board/ volume for a guy my size at my level? I want something to use from 6.5 down to 5.0 and maybe a bit smaller for Nitnat and cook street that I can learn to jibe and jump on.

You will eventually need 2+ new boards: slalom/free and higher wind,wave (and a barn door formula if you are that kinda guy ). Being next to the ocean your next choice isn't easy, depends on where you spend your time. I learned to plane on a 105L Rogue wave (that I could barely uphaul), higher wind transition on an 8'6" (when length mattered) BIC Rap, I think it was 88L and had a "if you hit chop at speed you die" nose. I could run up to a 6m on it but it performed poorly then, worked best with a 4.5-5.0. I recall also having all kinds of waterstart roundup problems and slogging, couldn't have been used in the ocean safely, ha . My 95L Naish Supercross fits most ocean sailing for me today from 4.8-6.0 but it's a bit slow for the lake, trade-offs and strap positions. Rarely do I use a smaller waveboard. For the lake you can take a bit less cuz of the smoother water you get going faster and plane easier. don't really need a wave rail etc, usually with a smaller slalom/free board to 90L (I have an 87Free that works great at the Nat when it comes up but it does need a fair amount of wind not to slogg). For the ligher days I use a 110L free. I'm 94Kg so I'd think for you 95-100L supercross/ATV type board would work great in high wind AND ocean, 105-120 free for the usual lake 6-7.5 variety...If you'd tried a 95L board in the 30 knots you'd know what I mean. BTW you don't want a board that you can float on when the wind really comes up.... it's also way easier to waterstart a board you can sink by the tail once ya get the hang of it, but don't let people tell ya that for real waves/wind you need 75L (that happens 1-2x per year around here for a sailor your weight) nor rely on what older boards feel like and their volume, not sure how old the Mistral was u tried. Some of the new shapes sure seem to allow for a whole other dimension mind you, thinking Evos and the like...can't believe I'm thinking Evo 80...here I go again

Thanks for all the responses. It's kinda what I figured. I wish I would've figured it out yesterday afternoon as opposed to this morning but I guess a little reflection never hurts. Next time I'll know.

Big D......that board you tried was actually an old RRD from the early to mid 90's. The MIstral logo is just a deceiving sticker It's not a really friendly style of board for shortboard newcomers. There are lots of other boards in that volume range that I'm sure you would love.

Kevin, who used to live here, is a big guy like you and he used to sail a Carve 123 and seemed to really like it. He'd sail it at Gordon's with a 5.0 and also at the lake. He also had an older GO board before the Carve. You might want to talk to him. He posts here sometimes under the name 'HalifaxSurfer' or something like that. I can send you his e-mail if you can't find it on this site.

I would think you might be able to go a bit smaller than 123 litres though. Are you keeping the GO as well? I can't remember what your post said
If you are keeping the GO, I'd look at something in the 110-120 litre range and once you're comfortable on that, go to something smaller.

Kus is a big guy but he's been sailing for a long time so he can manage a small board no problem. Going from a GO to a 95 litre board is a big jump. You can do it but you might have more fun learning short board techniques on something that is a bit more forgiving, at least for now. Just a thought.

Rob

I think Rob is right. Especially if you are sailing a lot at Nitinaht you will probably want something that is a good all round board with a 6.0 - 6.5 as the mid range sail. I highly recommend the Carve 121 (or it's ilk). I weigh 91 Kg so I'm in your neighbourhood. I've had a Carve 121 for a couple of years and have had loads of fun with it at Nitinaht, Nimpkish, Squamish, Harrison, and the Gorge (on a lite day). It is a great board to learn jibes and feels very loose and turny in the chop yet it can go fast when you want it to. I wouldn't over compensate and go for the 131 because it has much more of a big board feel than the 121 and won't be as much fun for you. The 121 will also carry an 8.0 or so so you can get it going in lighter days. I confess I have never sailed it with a 5.0 though. Eventually you wil want a wave-freeride board that is good for the 4.0 to 6.0 sail range. In my mind a reasonable jump from a 120 L board is to 90 - 95 L for someone of your size.

my two bits worth on the original part of the thread:
Kus described how he has no outhaul or even a little 'negative' on big sails:

Once I have it there I only tug a bit on the outhaul but usually keep it to near 0, on bigger stuff I keep a -1 or even -2" sometimes

I don't personally have the skills or experience Kus does, but there has been some discussion of this topic in other newsgroups recently. Bruce Peterson (its safe to say he knows something about Sailworks!) wrote one reply where he noted that virtually all modern sails like to have at least some positive outhaul, and the 0 or 'negative' (meaning centimetres of loose outhaul line?) settings were a relic of earlier sail design. Someone helped me out at Cook last winter when I had a very frustrating session due to being overpowered and twitchy on a 4.5 and not enough outhaul was the problem - I had it neutral. I put about 5 cm on and it transformed the sail! W247 knows all this (he musta had a bad night and forgot it, it happens!) but as Kus says, a couple of centimetres difference in DH can make a HUGE difference to the feel of the sail, especially when maxed out. I know I have killed mine a couple of times, released one or two centimetres, and regained the power and got rid of the twitchyness.

heres what works for me:
1 -downhaul untill the grommet meets the pulley thing
2 - tie off the clew (zero outhaul) then pull out the tailpiece one click.
you really cant go wrong!

[quote="more force 4"

virtually all modern sails like to have at least some positive outhaul, and the 0 or 'negative' (meaning centimetres of loose outhaul line?) settings were a relic of earlier sail design

Mmmyeah, to each his own I guess. When I use the 6.9 (a relic compared to some folks' gear) and have negative outhaul it's usually because I like to plane and not slog....yes, it overpowers the sail & it handles like crap, not twitchy but heavy on the back arm /moving the CE back, I'm just saying it gets me going instead of sitting on the beach thinking I should have a kite. In Rob's case that wasn't I don't think the case.... When you are over, course ya gonna outhaul positively, well until it gets too twitchy, ha! (and you have reached the end of the sail's range) Yeah, DWD, that's how it works

All of the major sail makers print the rigging specs right on the sail, so regardless of year or make if you rig it to the spec you are going to be awfully close to the sail design's sweet spot. Some sails have incorporated visual markers in the sail for downhaul range.

If your booms, bases etc don't have markings so you can easily figure the proper settings out, take a tape measure to it while it's sitting there on land and tweak accordingly before going out. Luff length is measured along the leading edge of the mast (curved distance), from the head of the sail to the grommet or pulley at the foot of the sail. Boom length is measured in a straight line from the front of the mast where the boom attaches to the clew end of the sail.

Once you go out, you may find it requires very minor tuning either way to power/depower the sail. This is typically + or - 1cm, (maybe 2-3cm for older stretched sails) if you've rigged to the spec. Typically you need to adjust both downhaul and outhaul at the same time. That is if you let off 2cm of downhaul, you should also let out 2cm of outhaul.

Visit the web site of your sail manu. & print out the instructions for your sail. (ensure it's the correct year!) Keep a copy in a place where you can read it over & over until it makes sense. Put another copy in your sail bag. Talk to other sailors that have similar equipment & show them your rig. The mast foot, boom height, fin, foot strap settings & harness positions/length have a huge bearing on your ride. Keep a log of what works/doesn't work & mark your settings with a felt pen. The down haul is the most often culprit. (not enough) I like the way some sails have marks on the leach that line up with the creases as the correct downhaul is applied for a given wind strength...With respect to the weather, sometimes lousy conditions may lead you to blame yourself/gear. For Kook st. I find that the Victoria harbour report is very accurate. Look @ the history after your session & figure out the conditions that work with YOUR equipment. Learn to observe other sailors & develop a pattern as to who uses similar gear or a size larger/smaller. Kiteing & windsurfing are very intuitive. Observe your surroundings & tune your gear as required.............

JUst thought of another contributing factor which probably affected my session on Saturday. I like to sail overpowered as opposed to under. Most of the places I sail (Nitinat, Esquimalt etc) are well suited to this because they are flatter. Everytime I sail at Cook St, I tend to have a hard time because I rig too big and end up pointing more upwind into the oncoming waves. Big waves don't seem to mix well with speed . Or, maybe I just need to get used to it. What do you Cook St regulars do?? Do you rig the same for 25 knots at Cook St vs. 25 knots at Nitinat??